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Writers Retreat > Student Talk > Course Lessons > Assignment 4 > point of view
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Strech
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« on: August 01, 2010, 09:32:36 PM »
 Grin Hi everyone. I'm working on my third course, writing for Publication. I'm struggling with the point of view in my manuscript. My instructor tells me I need a single point of view. One person telling the story. My story is about two friends who find themselves in a adventure/mystery at a gold mine on Vancouver Island. I would like to construct my story simular to that of the Hardy Boy Series. There were always dual points of view, one from Frank, the other from Joe. My question to my instructor was, why can I not do like wise. Her reply was, the Hardy Boys are old material. We don't do it that way anymore. She also went on to say, if I used a dual point of view, it would be hard to get my manuscript published. So,......if this is the case, how do I set a single point of view, but still include my second person in the story. I can't just, kill him off. He is a very big part of the story. Help me, someone please.
Stretch@north of sixty
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2010, 09:39:20 PM »
If this is a novel, there are lots (especially YA) written nowadays with more than one POV--alternating chapters is a common way it's done.

If it's a short story, then I can see your instructor's point. But killing off one of your characters seems pretty extreme! You can show all his actions through the main character's POV, if they're together throughout the story. You can show his thoughts and emotions through his actions and his dialogue; you wouldn't need to actually jump into his POV for that.

If the two of them are not together all the time, then you can show what the non-main character is up to by having him tell the MC about it when they get back together, maybe.
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 10:12:39 PM »
Point of view is a matter of whose HEAD you get into. Imagine that you're only allowed to read the mind of one character though both characters are important. In the series I'm doing for one publisher, the "cast" of the book is six girls. I only write from ONE point of view though all the girls are important. But the books change point of view with each book. So you don't have to kill a character to have a single point of view and two important characters.

Now, in a short story, if you split point of view, you do make it very hard to sell.

In a novel, depending on the age group, you can split point of view by chapter or even by scene. The Penderwicks uses multiple points of view. But if your instructor is suggesting NOT spliting the point of view, you may simply not being doing it very well. Especially if both your characters have strongly similar personalities, a split point of view can be very confusing. You must be much much much more skilled to pull off multiple points off view than to pull off one.
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 01:29:43 PM »
James Patterson did it in the "Maximum Ride" series. It was chapter by chapter, not done often - just once in a while, and the chapters are dang short (500 words or so each). It enhanced the story.

Then again, if Jan says you must be quite talented to pull it off, well, James Patterson is a best-selling author for a good reason. He must be really good at being a writer!

Kate and Jan have some great suggestions!

Good luck with your course!
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 01:52:20 PM »
Actually, I'm 99.9% sure James Patterson doesn't actually WRITE the Maximum Ride series. He creates outlines and others write the books. And the viewpoint shifts are kind of uneven in terms of how well they "work" so that might also be a function of other writers on the project. In fact, that particular series is VERY uneven in quality so...um...try not to use it a pattern for your own work. Clearly, though...they have something teens want badly -- lots of action.
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 05:30:57 PM »
Quote from: jfields on August 02, 2010, 01:52:20 PM
Actually, I'm 99.9% sure James Patterson doesn't actually WRITE the Maximum Ride series. He creates outlines and others write the books. And the viewpoint shifts are kind of uneven in terms of how well they "work" so that might also be a function of other writers on the project. In fact, that particular series is VERY uneven in quality so...um...try not to use it a pattern for your own work. Clearly, though...they have something teens want badly -- lots of action.

I am shocked!  Shocked He didn't really write it?  Wow, you learn something new every day!
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 06:16:01 PM »
There's a good chance he wrote the first one.
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 08:17:08 PM »
Thanks everybody, you have helped somewhat??? This is a manuscript of 300 pages My main character is the son of an RCMP officer. His best friend lives next door. Together they solve mysteries like Frank and Joe Hardy did in that series. The two boys are almost always together. Guess I'll have to learn to split them up now and again. Thanks Stretch

P.S. I now have three manuscripts, with 300 plus pages to correct now.
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 08:24:58 PM »
Oh, I didn't mean you should split them up... I was just giving a suggestion for something you could do with the writing if you needed to split them up.

It could be that you were "head-hopping," and your instructor was objecting to that kind of frequent switching of POV within the same chapter.

But anyhow, have fun with it!
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2010, 09:05:18 PM »
Quote from: jfields on August 02, 2010, 06:16:01 PM
There's a good chance he wrote the first one.

Eh, doesn't matter that much to me. I enjoyed the series immensly!
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2010, 10:21:51 PM »
Quote from: Thom on August 02, 2010, 08:17:08 PM
The two boys are almost always together.

If they're almost always together what possible gain can there be in jumping back and forth between two viewpoints? I expect THAT's why it's being suggested that you not hop from head to head, there's no real point to it and head hopping without a strong reason will keep you from getting published. Keep the two together but only tell it in one viewpoint. You'll end up with a much stronger book.
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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2010, 01:08:03 PM »
I like one POV best, but there are some times where I do enjoy the split POV's between two MC's.

This was an interesting thread. I hope it keeps goin' on. I was loving this discourse. Cheesy
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2010, 06:38:46 PM »
 ???Like I said, almost always together. There are time, just like in the Hardy Boys that Joe and Frank were separated, as are Charlie and his best friend Lonnie in my series. Myself, I don't have a complaint using different POVs, I think it builds the story up, giving?Huh?.....another POV. Thom
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« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2010, 08:51:35 AM »
Well, for it to work, both need to be established as clear viewpoint characters...and switched regularly (but not jumping back and forth in a single scene...that used to be okay but publishers don't like it now).

Also, both characters need to be PROFOUNDLY different in voice, approach, attitude, tone. You need to know instantly whether you're in Frank or Joe (just using the Hardy Boy names for ease here...I know your characters would have different names). That means you'd have say...Frank be a kind of hale and hearty, big talk, funny, garulous kid while Joe was thoughtful, maybe scientific, cautious, etc...everything Frank isn't. That way, changes in viewpoint do more than make it easy on the writer...they actually make for a profoundly different experience.

And you need to know that it lessens emotional connection with the characters, but in a lot of boy books...that's not really an issue.
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